MARIYA DEYKUTE: Could you provide an introduction to Xinjiang as our “stage”, so to speak?

ZHAINA MEIRKHAN: Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region is the largest of China’s provinces. It shares borders with several Central Asian states, Russia, Mongolia, and Tibet. In history, it has been partly and fully under control of empires such as Qing in the 18th century, and the People’s Republic of China gained control of the region after 1949 and China’s civil war. Right now, it is home to a number of ethnic groups such as Uyghurs, Kyrgyz, Han, Hui, Russians, Uzbeks, Xibo, Tuwa, Daghur.

MD: What about the Qazaq presence in Xinjiang?

ZM: Qazaqs in China’s Xinjiang are one of the nationalities trapped in the politics of inbetweenness, in their case between China and Qazaqstan. In Xinjiang, the Qazaqs mainly live in the vast areas on the edge of the Junggar Basin in the northern Tianshan Mountains of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, including the three regions, Yili (Ili), Tacheng (Tarbaghatay), and A Letai (Altay). Mulei (Mori) Qazaq Autonomous County, and Balikun (Barkol) Qazaq Autonomous County also have a large population of Qazaqs. There are also settlements in Boertala (Buratal/Bortala) Mongolian Autonomous Prefecture, Urumqi County, and Akesai (Aqsay) Qazaq Autonomous County in Gansu Province in China. The exact number of the Qazaq population, according to China’s demographic statistics, was about 440,000 in 1949 and in 2010 the census increased to 1.46 million, but this is highly doubted by scholars and social activists. They believe that the total number of Qazaq people has already reached 2.5-3 million in China’s Xinjiang. 

MD: That’s a very sizeable population -- what has the Qazaq experience been like in Xinjiang?

ZM: The majority of Qazaqs enjoyed relative freedom in crossing the Sino-Qazaqstan border since Qazaqstan became a nation-state after the collapse of Soviet Union. But since 2016, the deteriorating political climate in Xinjiang and the fact that the cultural belonging and identities of Qazaqs from Xinjiang are intimately entwined with their ‘ethno-national homeland’ trapped them in a precarious state of belonging nowhere. Those who migrated to Qazaqstan found not necessarily a welcome home, but additional frustrations of integration and reintegration. This has left the Qazaqs in Xinjiang increasingly relying on shared beliefs (Islam/being Muslim) and (expressive) cultural form (such as aitys) to negotiate their everyday life and their cultural belonging and come to terms with their perpetual in-between-ness.

MD: From the perspective of somebody who has experienced this, how does this state of in-between-ness manifest in daily life? 

ZM: Basically, in Xinjiang, the Qazaqs relate themselves to the Qazaq community in Qazaqstan -- they imagine themselves, feel themselves as part of this community, rather than the Chinese community in Xinjiang. And meanwhile Xinjiang Qazaqs in Qazaqstan still experience many kinds of exclusion-- culturally, socially, sometimes politically. Even if they have attained Qazaqstani citizenship they are still marginalized according to the way they are presented in the media narratives that show them as a problem in society, unable to integrate into their own nation, their homeland. For me, I’m also a part of this community, and in the beginning this kind of struggle was simply an everyday part of my life. I can see it clearly reflected in every aspect of my life: the problems, the trauma, the exclusion, the silence.

Of course, this can be different for different people. There isn’t a single narrative. Though some people, even if they have been here for many years, can still experience this exclusion very acutely, most accept it as a part of their lives, and they don’t complain, they just try to deal with it privately and move on. However, for newcomers, for marginalized communities, and especially for people who are struggling with basic survival in what can be a foreign culture -- how to gain minimum income, maintain their living conditions -- for many of them this issue of belonging is a constant struggle.

MD: I’ve been working with the poet Tilek Rysbek, who writes in Qazaq, and grew up in Xinjiang before his family immigrated back to Qazaqstan -- he talks about how even though he has returned to his ancestral “home”, so to speak, he still misses Xinjiang, his childhood home.

ZM: That’s very much a true part of the picture. But let me ask - how old is this person? 

MD: I’d say late thirties, early forties. 

ZM: Almost my age, then. Most people my age had a quite peaceful childhood. Probably because we were children, but also because our childhood was during [the Presidency of] Hu Jintau whose ethnic policies towards indigenous people in Xinjiang were quite tolerable -- people did not have to worry about being excluded from society, and we never had issues among the different ethnic groups. Of course there were problems, but they were normal social problems, not issues determined by ethnicity. Although there was a lot of poverty, especially in rural Xinjiang, people were still peaceful, they were not excluded through governmental policies or propaganda. We never experienced the turbulence like what happened in 2009 in Xinjiang, and also the purge that has been happening in the past few years. 

MD: So there was a period of quiet?

ZM: I would say until I graduated from college and started working -- until then I never worried about being different from others, or that I would not have access like others would. Even though we were surrounded by so many ethnic neighbors -- Uyghurs, Han, Hui, Mongols, Daghur -- I don’t remember that I had any kind of harsh conflicts based on ethnicity, because we were all neighbors, we all lived in one place. I was fluent in Mongol when I was a child because we had so many Mongolian neighbors. But after 2009 the issues present were intentionally inflated. I believe the gaps between ethnic groups were really created and exacerbated by the government to make people believe that there are some kind of inherent issues among people who believe in different religions, or are from different backgrounds.

MD: It does sound like this is not something that is endemic to the place, but government propaganda, changing policies, etc. 

ZM: Yes, and one of the things that contributed was the competition between groups when the government tried to move people from inland China to Xinjiang to fill a population gap. Xinjiang as a region is quite large, and a lot of places there were less populated, so the government moved inner-land Chinese migrants to Xinjiang.  This created competition between Han and other ethnic groups because most of the institutions and organization preferred Han Chinese employees instead of people with other ethnic backgrounds: so more and more college graduates could not get jobs in Xinjiang, and there was a really high rate of joblessness at that time. Because of this the disparity between the Han ethnic and others became more and more prominent. 

MD: In this complicated (and now, dangerous) context, what is the place for a traditional art form like aitys? Could you introduce us briefly to its significance in Xinjiang?

There is scholarship about aitys in Xinjiang encompassing the history of aitys, the contemporary volumes of aitys poems from the pre-Mao era, as well as monographs and journal papers pertaining to the roles of aitys play in Qazaq people’s life, so the history goes back quite a ways. In post-socialist era, aitys has been the mechanism for Qazaqs in Xinjiang to legitimize their sense of belonging to their historical homeland. 

The challenge the aitys faces in Xinjiang is immeasurable. In the past 4-5 years various kinds of cultural events have been unofficially banned from the public exposure to facilitate the indigenous assimilation into the Han-culture. Aitys once was instrumentalized as the state’s facility for propagandizing Party’s merciful affirmative actions and praising unity between Han-Chinese and indigenous peoples in Xinjiang, but it is now was belittled as the ‘exotic’, ‘unloyal’, and articulating dangerous ‘Qazaq nationalism’.

MD: So, contemporary aitys in Xinjiang is very much left to the whims of governmental policy? 

Contemporary aisty in China has been highly monitored by the state in regards to its content and form for a very long time. I would like to quote from Guldana Salimjan’s work where she cited Tami Blumenfield and Helaine Silverman (2013) who pointed out that, “in China, cultural tradition is used as a political tool for unifying the nation through their position in power telling stories of past and present to create a strong bond of ethnic harmony and national unity.”

In the second half of the twentieth century, rather than being a genre that questions authority, aitys in Xinjiang became the stage for China’s broader nationalizing projects and political performance that promotes socialist values, the positive aspects of society, and the mercy of CCP for the indigenous peoples in Xinjiang. 

MD: So it occupies quite a different place in Xinjiang than in Qazaqstan or Kyrgyztan. 

ZM: Indeed. Aitys in Qazaqstan was sponsored mainly by the powerful individual patrons who mutually allied themselves with the cultural organizers to engage in the political debates in the public arena, and of course enjoys much more freedom. Aitys in Qazaqstan has more flexible space in terms of praising ‘authentic’ Qazaqness and its criticism towards the Qazaq authorities and social issues whereas aitys in Xinjiang has been limited to cultural aspects rather than the political critique due to safety reasons. There have been aqyns sent from Xinjiang to Qazaqstan and Kyrgyzstan who have a number one  prioritized role as the friendship messengers between the two countries to sing the ‘betterment’ of the people’s life in China. 

MD: But even the “safer” kinds of aitys events are forbidden now in Xinjiang, are they not? 

ZM: Yes, in the past years, from 2016, I’d say, I have not heard of any events organized in Xinjiang at all. May be really regional or really small sized gatherings, like during a Kazakh toi [wedding, ceremonies, family gatherings], and limited to a very domestic context. Jokes, insults, women and men debating back and forth, messing with each other. But there has not been one official event organized that I’ve ever heard of during the last few years. Everything has been wiped out. 

MD: But surely aitys has more than just a political or propagandizing dimension in Xinjiang. What is the place of aitys in the larger context of culture and identity?

Even though it is so tightly regulated, aitys is integral for Qazaqs in Xinjiang, as it constructs a communal Qazaq ethnic identity and sense of belonging to the historical ‘homeland’ Qazaqstan. It is a representative art form that Qazaqs legitimize their being Qazaq and belonging to the Qazaq nation because the traditions and culture practiced by Qazaqs are all presented and sung in aitys performances. Moverover, an aitys performance is more than just a poetic debate. Usually, traditional crafts, and other cultural artifacts are displayed that create a connection to Qazaq culture and identity for the younger generation. One of the women I interviewed as part of my fieldwork, Saya, often speaks of attending aitys performances in Xinjiang as a child with tears in her eyes: “My first aitys left me with an indelible impression. It was the first time that I saw so many kigyzui!” [Kigyzui literally means “felt houses” and refers to what is more commonly known as yurts, traditional nomadic homes.] “You know,” Saya continued, “some [Qazaqs] have never seen kigyzui. Some have never ridden horses, and many can’t tell the difference between a tuye [two-humped camel] and a nar [dromedary]. Girls don’t know what to wear at their own weddings … aitys gives [Qazaqs] the opportunity to learn about these forms of their culture.”

Of course, part of this authentic cultural learning has to do with gendered identity as well. The majority of Qazaqs believe the gendered education is the key in the shaping the Qazaq identity. The ethnic communities and newly national state governments alike are strongly emphasizing the idea of ‘tradition’ for Central Asian social life, which always includes a strong idea of gender hierarchy/roles. This is true in Xinjiang as well due to the similar pattern of socialist ideologies, and the transnational character of Qazakh nationality where the gendered ideologies are shared. So aitys events also allow the more traditional gender norms to be learned and re-emphasized.

MD: Interesting that you mention this idea of aitys upholding gender roles -- you yourself often write about how aitys can be empowering for women.

ZM: Yes, the female aqyns can acquire a kind of empowerment. If the woman is considered an aqyn then she has the ability to publicly criticize, though of course within the reasonable framework of the aitys. Though I will say again still often female aqyns are used as a tool to uphold or raise masculine agendas. It’s really obvious in aitys in Qazaqstan — they always praise this masculine part of this society. So even though the female aqyns have empowerment, its a partial empowerment -- they don’t get all the power to stand there and criticize the patriarchy: they have to serve this system because they are part of this society, the society that dictates that a woman should be this way or that. So on one hand they are empowered in one way by this society, and have some flexibility, but on the other hand, they are also controlled by this kind of Qazaq-ness, being Qazaq, because this is a part of their identity: if you as an aqyn are not accepting the patriarchy, you are not accepting yourself as being part of the Kazakh identity, or being part of being Kazakh, and thus you cannot be a legitimate aqyn.

MD: So it is part of this traditional framework.

ZM: Yes, yes. Aitys is regarded as an identity-making mechanism, so the aqyns are subjected to the same agendas that require females’ full subjectivity as “obedient” and “domestic'' in the name of serving to maintain the solidarity of the nation. In this case, the female aqyns are making the community for the sake of unity through iterating the traditions and culture, as well as regional history and knowledge, but also questioning the authority’s role in echoing to the social issues stem from people’s daily life, in the meantime, finding ground for raising questions about gender equality.

MD: It’s an difficult context to navigate, especially in Xinjiang, when you are already in-between, especially if you are woman.

ZM: For me, it was much easier to get out of this system because I am not that traditional. I have a couple of friends in Almaty who are really struggling with this, and they really are in-between, there are so many layers and issues they have to deal with.

MD: In your life it’s not such a major force. Your authenticity comes from other places.

ZM: Yes. I don’t have to be wearing all of these headscarves, etc, to be a Qazaq woman, or a Qazaq wife. But in the past I was really struggling -- because we were always educated a certain way at home -- that I am Qazaq, I cannot be Chinese, I cannot marry a Chinese man, I must maintain tradition. But later, whether because of education or being exposed to so many different cultures, this is not very much a problem anymore.

MD: There is a new generation too — and I’m thinking of our students here… For them a lot of these concepts around culture, gender, tradition are being redefined -- do you think they will come to redefine aitys, ultimately? Or do you think it will remain this preserved, heritage form?

ZM: There is actually a kind of non-traditional related artform -- dat, a kind of oral artistic debate -- two young people -- they use contemporary music and rap their ideas with rhythmic tone, a rap battle-debate of sorts. They don’t sing or play the dombra, but this is very popular among the young people here in Qazaqstan. There is another artform, perhaps closer to the traditional -- the internet aitys -- it keeps to the traditional form of a poetic debate with dombra, the difference is that it is completely virtual. So, there is definitely some changes, and redefinition, but right now aitys events are largely sponsored by one of the parties [Nuraltan] and since the authority still wants this traditional form to be passed on to future generations I think aitys will keep to a more traditional form. But of course, thre are cases of people sending aitys verses through text messages, etc — and those kinds of offshoots can create a bigger audience for the traditional form, as well.

MD: I’m glad you brought up the idea of audience. You’ve mentioned the importance of audience for the aitys, because the topic are sometimes chosen by the audience, the winners are evaluated by the reaction from the audience. In terms of aitys in Xinjiang is the audience different somehow there than aitys performed elsewhere, in terms of topics chosen or audience reaction?

ZM: In Xinjiang during better times, aqyns definitely got a chance to raise some issues that were dictated by the concerns of the audience -- like the language issue. Qazaqs in Xinjiang are often somewhat voluntarily giving up their language by sending their kids to Han Chinese schools -- just like people here sometimes send their kids to Russian language schools because they are thought to have better academics. This is one of the issues that aqyns would always raise during the aitys events — that we are forgetting our language, our culture, that we will become no one since without language we can no longer be Qazaqs, real authentic Qazaqs.

In terms of critiques about the government, or the ruling system, that’s always been out of the question in aitys in Xinjiang. It could cost you. You can go somewhere where… well, where you do not expect to go. But the topics debated in Qazaqstan during aitys events have more flexibility because the aqyns are renowned by their ability to engage in this kind of discussion in front of the audience and this empowers them to have the right and the flexibility to publicly raise important issues, have veiled critiques of the government. The aqyns from Xinjiang really admired that the aqyns in Qazaqstan have this kind of space, this kind of freedom.

MD: This does sound difficult in terms of preserving the authenticity of the artform -- because aitys is the kind of event that should serve as the vox populi-- being able to articulate the concerns of the audience.

ZM: Yes. 

MD: Finally, for you as the researcher, why is it important to study the place of aitys in Xinjiang; and why is it important for others to be aware of the layered complexity of this art form and its presence in Xinjiang Kazakh society? 

The study I conducted, to some extent, could be the ‘case study’ for the studies of transnational mobility, with aitys just one example of the cultural elements at play. The potentials of inter-generational and transnational aspects of this study has demonstrated in the tensions between different conceptions of ‘homeland’, claimed among people from different walks of life and various generations and between aqyns when they claimed the values of their geographical and historical features of their own smaller sized ‘homelands’. This is fascinating to me, and speaks to the interwoven dynamics of ethnic identity, language, politics, art. My research also contributes to the ethnographic literature on ‘Central Asia’ on identity, gender, culture, and belonging.

I also think it is important to note that aitys as a platform for the discussion of social and political issues in Qazaq society creates room for further research on the potentials of aitys to be counted as an oppositional force or art form. Of added importance are the cultural elements that have being consolidated and reproduced in aitys where a temporary space is built to connect people in the present venue, as well as connect them to the past history of such events. This space is also a platform for conflicts between aqyns in aitys that occur quite often that influence its audiences’ positions towards the issues being sung about. So, aitys creates a dynamic environment while at the same time aqyns represent some broader ‘wholeness’ because they are connected to the past, to the cultural heritage, and frame their previous ‘fights’ and ‘disagreements’ as being for the betterment of the whole community’s future, a support for a kind of unifying ethno-national homeland. This is a dynamic that I think is incredibly important to explore, and is crucial in order to understand the complexity of maintaining Qazaq identity in Xinjiang.

MD: What are some questions that are still unexplored in the scholarship, in your opinion?

ZM: I would say in general research on aitys as of now has been very scarce. Exploring the potentials of aitys to function as an oppositional force (including in terms of gender dynamics) is one aspect that needs to be investigated further… Including how aitys can function an an autonomous procedure in terms of negotiating with a political authority over political requests, petitions, and appeals from the common masses who claim their identity and belonging through various cultural forms showcased in aitys performances. The field is vast and wide open.

MD: Thank you for your research and for this discussion. Allow me to close by quoting from your manuscript the verses of Sara, the aqyn from Qazaqstan who competed in the 2011-2012 aitys in Xinjiang.

In this greeting Sara addresses her Xinjiang audience.

……Auzynan tastamaityn yel amanba?   Are the people well here, 

Bysmylasyn alahu akbarymen.         The ones who never forget to say “there is 

no God but Allah?” 

Ordayng qyzy aidar taqanymen,         Though your symbol is red, 

Bul yeldyng qasietyn jatqabylem…    I know every piece of you well… 

Armysyng ardaqtty aghaindar,          How are you my dearest people 

Terbelgen azatyqtyng aqtangmen.       who have enjoyed the morning of freedom. 

Jupar issy anqyghan jupar dalam,       The sweet fragrance of my homeland 

Qoinauynan yryspen qut aunaghan.       filled with happiness and joyful moments.  

Aibyndy allatauym salemaitty,             The gallant Alatau mountain’s greeted,  

Basynda juldyz qonyp bulyt aunaghan.  upon which the stars have                 

fallen, and the clouds have rolled. 

Qasietty Qaratau Qazaghymma,         The sacred Qaratau,  

Buzylmas sheyngber eddy qursaulaghan.   the protecting ring for my Qazaqs. 

Shettegy ul qyzyma salem atdep,         Sending her greetings to you all,  

Amanat arqalatty ultau maghan.    is my obligation from our nation. 

Oraltaudyng sizdaydy qart juregy,      The heart of Oraltau Mountain is hurting, 

Alykunge syderdy umtalmaghan.        He will never forget you all. 

Tarbaghatai taunan saghynysh bop,      The longing from the Tarbaghatai 

Mountain, 

Qyranyng qanaty bop jyr samghaghan.   are the wings of the poem of the flying eagle. 

Ozderyngdy koz ayam bop koregenyme,   meeting you all here is all I wish, 

An adara qalmayma shyrqalmaghan…  let alone the poems that I dedicated…